Talk:Ado

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How do we know that Ado is a boy? Kusamochi 22:19, 28 May 2011 (CDT)

As far as I'm aware, we don't. No gender is given for Ado in English-language material to my knowledge, though the Japanese manga allegedly portrays him or her as female. While that's not confirmed to be true in the English-language canon, the "male" thing is speculation, and thus even more out of place here. I'm thinking we should either take a "he or she" route or go by the Japanese canon (if someone can confirm Ado's gender as being female in the manga) in absence of an official statement in English.--Vellidragon 08:58, 29 May 2011 (CDT)

An encylopedia that comes with the Japanese release of Kirby's Dream Collection lists both Ado and Adeleine under "Ado", and refers to them as female. Any idea what should we do? User:Technickal

To corroborate, design documents from the 25th anniversary "Kirby Art & Style Collection" Japanese art book have recently come to light showing that Ado from Kirby's Dream Land 3 was redesigned into Adeleine for Kirby 64 - even stating "Ado's appearance in Kirby 64 went by the name of Adeleine." - confirming that they are indeed the same character. This is also supported by a music file named "N64_Ado" in Team Kirby Clash Deluxe as well as Adeleine's Japanese romanization, Adorēnu. A few other sites such as the other wiki are ahead of us, so now would be as good a time as any to catch up. We can say, for example, "Adeleine, originally known as Ado," etc. and leave an entire section dedicated to the character's confusing history. AdieuLain (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
Since the Kirby Star Allies Dream Friends update featuring Adeleine is out and it doesn't seem like Nintendo Treehouse Log will post about it like they did last time, I thought now would be a good time to revisit this topic with current knowledge. At first glace, it would seem that Adeleine doesn't feature any overt references to Kirby's Dream Land 3 outside of some of the drawings, which also includes Waiu from Kirby's Dream Land 2; however, the move that creates boss drawings is called Ado's Painter (アドペインター, "Ado Painter"), contrasting the enemy version of the move, Painter (ペインター). While Adeleine is said to be from Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, it's important to note that she is paired with Ribbon, and Gooey is given similar treatment as a representative from Kirby's Dream Land 3 instead of his less notable debut in Kirby's Dream Land 2. In fact, official video descriptions from Nintendo of Europe (+Russia) clarify that Adeleine is indeed from Kirby's Dream Land 3, again confirming that she and Ado are one and the same. (Side note, a correction: that "N64_Ado" music file is present in all of the eShop games, not just Team Kirby Clash Deluxe.) AdieuLain (talk) 23:01, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Merge into Adeleine?[edit]

I once attempted to merge this before, but it was reverted because there was no prior discussion on the matter. Didn't get quite how major the change I was making was back then. But I'm trying again. It's pretty obvious that the two are intended to be the same character, per their design similarities, their roles in the games, that Japanese Kirby encyclopedia entry, and most importantly Star Allies. It doesn't really make sense to me to have them split. This isn't speculation at all, as what this article calls "heavy implication" couldn't be more clear about them being the same character. The encyclopedia pretty much says "this is her Dream Land 3 design and this is her Crystal Shards design". And Star Allies furthers this by including many references to her DL3 design in her moveset, including a move known as "Ado's Painter" that paints Ado's minibosses from DL3. But I just want to see what you all have to say on this matter, as I see now that this would be a pretty major merge if we went through with it. -YFJ (talk · edits) 01:23, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I still hold that the two pages should be separate, considering one mainly has to do with her boss appearance in Kirby's Dream Land 3, and the other has to do with her appearance as an ally in Kirby 64 and in Star Allies. If she shared the same name between both games, it would be more justifiable to merge, but we already have separate pages for characters in different contexts even with the same name. As such, I am still gonna have to say no on this one. --Fubaka (talk) 01:53, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
I do see your point, but personally I never really understood the point of having separate articles for different designs. Aren't they covered just fine on the main articles? But even if we do keep the different designs separate, I feel that it's wrong to call them different characters, with all the official info pointing to the contrary. Maybe we could keep them separate to stay consistent with other design changes, but still specify that Ado is merely an early design of Adeleine rather than a separate character? -YFJ (talk · edits) 03:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Aye. Feel free to fix up the article to state that they are the same character under different names and look. --Fubaka (talk) 06:17, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
The Japanese Kirby 20th anniversary encyclopedia supports that they are the same. If it has never been officially shown in any way that they are different, I support for the merge. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
The 20th Anniversary encyclopedia (Pupupu Taizen) actually does not support they are the same. It mentions their many similarities, and does note that it's likely that they are the same, but ultimately states that it's "unknown" if they truly are. And that's the most recent official statement we got, it's canonically ambigious.
Also, what YoshiFlutterJump paraphrased in their first post here is incorrect. For starters, it's not not from an encyclopedia, it's from the art book "Arts & Style Collection", but in any case, that information has actually been mistranslated by fans in the past. The design sketches in question depect Ado's redesign for the manga adaptations of KDL3, and also mentions that she resembles Adeleine.
For a better explanation, I made a more detailed post detailing this particular source and how it has been mistranslated here, and I made a companion post that details the shared history of Ado and Adeleine in general here, if anyone is interested.Kaialone (talk) 11:01, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
I say what it seems like is that they were the same character pre-2002, but with Shimomura gone they just called it ambiguous because they themselves didn't know. But the official material never outright denies it; older material implies they're the same, and newer material calls it ambiguous. I feel that the older material has preference here for that reason. And I'll remind you that they were still clearly trying to connect the two in Star Allies, but never flat-out said they're the same (likely to respect Shimomura); that much can be said without any canonicity speculation. Basically, old story is that they're the same and new story is that the developers don't even know. I think we're better off keeping it the way it is (with Ado being considered an early design of Adeleine) until further notice. And hopefully, that further notice will come soon. Still, though, it may very well be worth noting on the article. -YFJ (talk · edits) 15:09, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
Actually, for more info on this, check out the video links in the above discussion. They show Nintendo UK pointing out in Star Allies video descriptions that Adeleine is from Dream Land 3 in various languages. If that's not recent official information then I don't know what is. -YFJ (talk · edits) 15:32, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
I don't know, the idea "older information takes precedent" is your personal opinion, plus even in older meterial, Ado and Adeleine have never been confirmed to be the same, unless you count a few manga versions, and those aren't even consistent with one another. And the most recent official statement literally is "it's not known if they are the same", so shouldn't it be written like that in the article, too? I know about the NoE and Russia youtube video descriptions, but be aware that this detail is suspiciously absent from their NoA and NoJ equivalents. To me, this looks like a mistake someone on NoE made, possibly even by reading the misinformation spread by the English-speaking fandom. It wouldn't be unlike Ado being referred to as male in early English material (she's only been ever referred to as female in Japanese media), or NoA's Sibling Day poll explicitly portraying the Mage Sisters as siblings, when Kumazaki himself has gone on record that it's meant to be ambigious. At most, you could say that European and Russian material have portrayed Ado and Adeleine as being the same, but that would count as a localization change at this point. Kaialone (talk) 08:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, if anything, I believe that policy says that any English information takes precedence if it conflicts with any information in other regions, likely because of the many different translations. You know, like how Kirby's gender is left ambiguous in Japan, but is most definitely male in other regions. We already know that NoE says they're the same. NoA seems to imply it too, with the English translation of the aforementioned encyclopedia not mentioning "Ado" at all. And NCL just isn't sure what to say. I say older information takes precedence here as well because it's the only Japanese info that comes even close to being definitive; that's not personal opinion (although saying that older information in general takes precedence would be). There is no doubt that during the production of Kirby 64, Adeleine was Ado. It really all comes down to "Ado exists only because 'Adeleine' wouldn't fit in the text box", and is left ambiguous in Japan to respect Shimomura.
But even if Nintendo did decide to leave it ambiguous all along, we need to use some common sense here. I mean, they look similar, their fights are essentially the same, their roles are similar (girl came to Popstar to study art), and even their names are similar (and as said before, the shorter name was likely only used because the longer name wouldn't fit in the DL3 text box). I'd say that unless official information contradicts it directly, we go with what can be derived from the obvious: they're the same character. -YFJ (talk · edits) 15:06, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
If I may interject, since this debate is still ongoing. I suspect that Ado and Adeleine are indeed meant to be the same character ultimately. However, at the same time, Super Mario Wiki sees fit to have separate pages for Luigi and Mr. L despite the fact that (spoilers) they are obviously the same character. The reason for this is because Mr. L is a specific role that Luigi has in Super Paper Mario, and the same could be argued for Ado in Kirby's Dream Land 3, as opposed to as Adeleine elsewhere. --Fubaka (talk) 15:48, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
I guess I just personally don't see why one shouldn't write "It's unknown if they are the same person", if that is what is the current official canon, as seen via Pupupu Taizen, and any doubt is mostly a result of English-speaking fans spreading a mistranslation of that Arts & Style Collection quote. Saying they're confirmed the same characte does directly contradict official information, since the official information is "it's not known if they are". Even if one would personally consider it an obvious retcon.
And I am not unconvinced that NoE saying Adeleine was in 3 in their Youtube description wasn't a result of an NoE employee actually reading that misinformation online or the like. I feel it's a bit irresponsible to just write possible mistakes on the localizers part as fact, at least without noting the possibility.
As a compromise, would it be alright to refer to Ado and Adeleine as "possibly" the same character? And note (possibly in trivia) that the only "official" confirmation is via NoE and Russia's youtube descriptions? I feel this would give readers a better way to come to an informed conclusion on their own. Kaialone (talk) 10:17, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Went ahead and added a paragraph to the "Ado or Adeleine" section of the article. You can look at it and tell me how you feel about it. -YFJ (talk · edits) 16:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I personally feel the paragraph still contains misleading information, and fan speculation, but if you want to leave it as is, there is ultimately not much more I can say on the matter.
If it's alright, might I suggest the following changes?
First, I think the redirect at the top page should say something closer to this: "This article or section is about the character Ado from Kirby's Dream Land 3. For information about the character who appears in other games and might possibly be Ado herself, see Adeleine."
Second, the "Ado or Adeleine" section would work more like this, in my opinion:
After the release of Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards for the Nintendo 64, there was much debate about Ado's relationship to Adeleine, a similar character who appears in said game, with pre-release material suggesting they were likely meant to be the same character during a point in development. The book “20th Anniversary - Hoshi no Kirby: Pupupu Taizen”, first released in 2012, adresses the many similarities of the characters, and suggest Ado could be a nickname of Adeleine, but ultimately states that it is simply unknown if there are the same person or not. Strangely, the English version of said encyclopedia does not mention the name 'Ado' at all, staying neutral on the topic.
While recent Japanese media has treated them as seperate character that only might possibly be the same, both Nintendo of Europe and Nintendo of Russia have stated that Adeleine appeared in Kirby's Dreamland 3, via the descriptions of their Youtube videos featuring the trailer for Adeleine & Ribbon's appearance in Kirby Star Allies. Specificially, it seems that all of these were translated from the UK version of the video. However, this detail is notably absent on both the respective Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Japan equivalents, so it could have possibly been an error."
I feel this is a fair assessment that covers the most notable pieces of information, without being biased towards either conclusion, and doesn't include too much fan speculation. So, I personally think this would be a good way to relay this information to potential readers, but if you take issue with it still, feel free to explain.
Also, I left it in because you seem so certain, but is there really an English equivalent of Pupupu Taizen? Because, if you're thinking of the book that came with the Dream Collector's edition, that's actually a completely different book.Kaialone (talk) 10:35, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
Looks fine to me. Also, I just assumed there was an English version since the article mentioned it. But you know, this is probably the best way to put it until we get further official confirmation. -YFJ (talk · edits) 16:30, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I rewrote the article in accordance to this now. If you don't have any problems with it as it is now, I would rewrite Adeleine to match this? Kaialone (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2019 (UTC)


Human?[edit]

Ado is referred to as human in some manga adaptations, but I was never sure if it was a manga-only thing. Recently though I found out that she is also called a human in a Japanese Kirby 3 guidebook called 星のカービィ3 最終攻略読本 (Kirby of the Stars 3: Final Strategy Textbook). Here's an image showing the excerpt.

The revelant text reads:

"絵の修行にポップスターにやってきた人間の女の子。"

"A human girl who came to Popstar to practice painting."

Is this enough to list human as her confirmed species? Or should it be included as a trivia point instead? Kaialone (talk) 10:29, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

There's little reason not to. Describing what is visibly obvious to the eye is not speculation at all. Besides, there's nothing that says she isn't human. You're being a little too skeptical of the obvious; a source is not necessary. -YFJ (talk · edits) 16:36, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
I just wanted to ask before adding it. A lot of things might appear "obvious" to fans, but could still turn out to be wrong, if the people in charge decide that it's not actually true. Kaialone (talk) 08:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Hmm, I see what you're saying. In any case, though, it's probably a good idea to add it back, as it's not like HAL's ever denied it. -YFJ (talk · edits) 11:49, 19 June 2019 (UTC)