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WiKirby talk:Quality Standards (old)
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Gender Pronouns
Figured this would be the place to put this. When an article has to refer to the player using a pronoun, should "he or she" or "they" be used? Both are correct, but a standard would be nice. Some "they"s have recently been changed to "he or she" on here, whereas at the MarioWiki for instance, "they" is generally used.--Vellidragon 20:17, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- "They" is wrong, actually. All the grammar books have said "they" is wrong. Pronouns do not mingle in grammar world. "They" is a common trap people fall in when it comes to pronouns. We have to use he/she, he or she, or s/he. And in the MarioWiki, he/she is generally used. I'm changing all "they"s into "he or she". I'm sorry, but that's the correct way.
Aphelocomaマリオ File:BirdonSuperstarUltra.gif 20:25, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- That's actually not quite correct. While certain grammar books reject "they" as the singular pronoun, that doesn't necessarily make it "incorrect"; it has been use since the 15th century, and continues to be widely used and generally accepted as a viable alternative to "he or she". The fact to take into consideration here is that language evolves - just because a word had not originally been used in a certain way, that doesn't mean using it in that way is incorrect if it has come to be used in that sense over time; it's a matter of what's accepted. As for the MarioWiki, all the "he/she"s are being changed into "they" lately.--Vellidragon 20:38, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- It's still not to be used in formal writing. Every single grammar book said that don't fall into the "they" trap and teachers around are probably even teaching students not to use that.
- That's actually not quite correct. While certain grammar books reject "they" as the singular pronoun, that doesn't necessarily make it "incorrect"; it has been use since the 15th century, and continues to be widely used and generally accepted as a viable alternative to "he or she". The fact to take into consideration here is that language evolves - just because a word had not originally been used in a certain way, that doesn't mean using it in that way is incorrect if it has come to be used in that sense over time; it's a matter of what's accepted. As for the MarioWiki, all the "he/she"s are being changed into "they" lately.--Vellidragon 20:38, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- If possible, change "player" to "players" to avoid this confustion.
MISSILE BABY LUIGI 20:45, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- I highly doubt that "every single grammar book" would say that, especially after my research on the subject. Some people are just not willing to accept its usage for whatever reason. Still doesn't change that fact that it's a lot less "clunky" to use either, being only a single word as opposed to three. (Also, appendix on the subject of the MarioWiki: I just noticed it's in their style guide.)--Vellidragon 20:52, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- Because a true pronoun for a gender specific group does not exist, that's why some of us resort to "they". However, using logic, it's incorrect, because "they" is supposed to refer to a group of people while "he/she" refers to an unidentified person. It is hassle using he/she and it does tires readers, but "they" is not correct either, especially in formal writing. A solution is to change "player" to "players".
- I highly doubt that "every single grammar book" would say that, especially after my research on the subject. Some people are just not willing to accept its usage for whatever reason. Still doesn't change that fact that it's a lot less "clunky" to use either, being only a single word as opposed to three. (Also, appendix on the subject of the MarioWiki: I just noticed it's in their style guide.)--Vellidragon 20:52, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
MISSILE BABY LUIGI 21:10, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- Using logic, "they" can refer to whatever it is commonly used for; as I said above, language evolves. By the same logic that would make a singular they incorrect, "thou" should also be used for 2nd person singular because "you" was originally a plural pronoun. Also check the "singular they" link in the section of the MarioWiki guidlines I linked.--Vellidragon 21:22, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- The problem is, spoken language evolves much faster than written. The singular "they" does not exist just about yet. According to the Heritage Dictionary, 80% of the people find the singular "they" unacceptable. Instead of relying on just internet resources, you should also research via books. All the books I've seen so far suggests using "he or she". Internet isn't always reliable. Besides, plenty of English teachers scorn the "singular they". The point is, to be safe, I think we should use "he or she". It's more formal than "they" and we want to be formal, right? Aphelocomaマリオ File:BirdonSuperstarUltra.gif 22:02, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
- The problem is, spoken language evolves much faster than written. The singular "they" does not exist just about yet. According to the Heritage Dictionary, 80% of the people find the singular "they" unacceptable. Instead of relying on just internet resources, you should also research via books. All the books I've seen so far suggests using "he or she". Internet isn't always reliable. Besides, plenty of English teachers scorn the "singular they". The point is, to be safe, I think we should use "he or she". It's more formal than "they" and we want to be formal, right?
- Using logic, "they" can refer to whatever it is commonly used for; as I said above, language evolves. By the same logic that would make a singular they incorrect, "thou" should also be used for 2nd person singular because "you" was originally a plural pronoun. Also check the "singular they" link in the section of the MarioWiki guidlines I linked.--Vellidragon 21:22, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- Would anyone oppose to naming this unidentified person? For example, {{CURRENTUSER}} can be set up to call a logged in editors name in the article. For example, an article could say "Vellidragon has to tilt the GBA to roll Kirby in Tilt-n-Tumble. lol Could be fun. Anyways, I gotta go out of town for a few days. But I'll be sure to check to see what you all want to do. Check the Sandbox, I just added the extension, my only complaint is the visible IP when logged out, but I'm looking to see if that can be changed to something else. Or we'd be able to make it a benefit of having an account, "Sign up to see your own name in articles!"Axiomist (talk) 22:33, 26 September 2010 (CDT)
- Editors have a range of gender, so saying "Axiomist needs his or her GBA cable to play multiplayer" doesn't sound right. Unless we can rewrite it so we don't have to use pronouns. Or maybe we have some gender-changing stuff, but some people would like to remain anonymous. Aphelocomaマリオ File:BirdonSuperstarUltra.gif 22:02, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
- Moydow and I are looking into it, What it will do is view my own personal preferences and when we use a template {{my}}, on my screen it would say "his" instead of "his or her" or "their". So logged in editors with a gender chosen will see 100% grammatically correct statements, and personalized. But no one would be able to see their settings. The battery of if and switch tags are going to cover all possibilities.
- Editors have a range of gender, so saying "Axiomist needs his or her GBA cable to play multiplayer" doesn't sound right. Unless we can rewrite it so we don't have to use pronouns. Or maybe we have some gender-changing stuff, but some people would like to remain anonymous.
- Update: He has it functioning. here So with {{me}} and that one will be for the possessive case of a pronoun, We could build statements like "the player must tap the player's DS with a stylus." No one but me will see my name and gender data, as we all see what our own preferences page set. Anons will see "the player" and we opted to avoid the pronoun altogether and use "the player's". From here, I think we'd have to work out all of the other scenarios in which we would need to build variables for, then implement it, rework the messagebox on the main page touting it, and share it with our NIWA pals to see if they'd like to use it. Axiomist (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
- How about pronouns such as "he" or "she"? And "him and his"? How would that work? Feminine pronouns have "she" and "her", but masculine pronouns have "he", "him", and "his". Aphelocomaマリオ File:BirdonSuperstarUltra.gif 22:34, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
- How about pronouns such as "he" or "she"? And "him and his"? How would that work? Feminine pronouns have "she" and "her", but masculine pronouns have "he", "him", and "his".
- Update: He has it functioning. here So with {{me}} and that one will be for the possessive case of a pronoun, We could build statements like "the player must tap the player's DS with a stylus." No one but me will see my name and gender data, as we all see what our own preferences page set. Anons will see "the player" and we opted to avoid the pronoun altogether and use "the player's". From here, I think we'd have to work out all of the other scenarios in which we would need to build variables for, then implement it, rework the messagebox on the main page touting it, and share it with our NIWA pals to see if they'd like to use it. Axiomist (talk) 22:11, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
Willing
Is anyone willing to help implement the personalization feature? There may be cases in which we need to alter the template for a correct usage fit, so a text-replace job won't do at all. I'd also like to hear some thoughts on it. Personally, I think it's an incredibly great tool unique to MediaWiki and we'd be sillier to not take advantage of it. I'm going to get some input from the NIWA forums to have a larger sampling of opinions, but ultimately it's what 18.190.156.212 thinks that matters the most ;) Axiomist (talk) 23:50, 29 September 2010 (CDT)
- It sounds kind of strange at first, but I think I'll get used to it. I'll experiment with it first. If you just give me the templates and where to place them, I will gladly help. If the template doesn't work on some spots, I'm pretty sure we can rewrite these spots to make it fit. I just hope people won't abuse the privilege (e.g. 18.190.156.212 SUCKSZ! HAhahaahaHA!1!1). I love innovations! Aphelocomaマリオ File:BirdonSuperstarUltra.gif 00:07, 30 September 2010 (CDT)
- {{me}} produces the user's username: or "the player" when logged out. {{my}} is a bit more complex; it produces "his" for a male user, "her" for female, "the" for one who hasn't set their gender, and "the player's" for logged-out users. There'll likely be more to come. Moydow 00:14, 30 September 2010 (CDT)
Back to this
Anyhow, everyone I show the personalization tools to seems to like it, the thread in NIWA attests to it. So, although "they, their" may not be proper grammar by the toughest standards, the personalization templates marginalize it and offer 100% correct grammatical statements with "his" for logged-in users having male set in preferences, and "her" for females. Is this at all an acceptable compromise to you Missile Baby Luigi? Axiomist (talk) 14:04, 4 October 2010 (CDT)
