Talk:Shadow Kirby

From WiKirby, your independent source of Kirby knowledge.
Jump to navigationJump to search

Name[edit]

In Super Kirby Clash, there's a sticker called "Shadow Kirby, which features that artwork of Mirror-World Kirby from Kirby and The Amazing Mirror. So, yeah, I guess HAL wants it to be called Shadow Kirby, and I think it should be renamed (as it's the latest name he received and it's not the first time he is named like this). --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Magma (talkcontribs) 23:07 September 16th, 2019. Please always sign your comments by typing ~~~~!

He is called Shadow Kirby at first in his origin game as well, but the purpose of that was to disguise his identity to the player. If we renamed this article to Shadow Kirby, it would get in the way of the other Shadow Kirby from Kirby Fighters, who is not known by any other name. --Fubaka (talk) 00:00, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
To be honest, I think that's more a result of awkward translation (it is the game that brought us "Mr. Flosty" after all, something that I couldn't believe would happen in a mid-2000's localization). The English line is, "Mirror-world Kirby will be there to keep them all safe!" The Japanese line is, 「これからはカガミのくにカービィへいわをまもってくれるでしょう」 Even if you don't read Japanese, you can see the color break in the line between the location name and Kirby's name, which the English version ignores and thus gives an impression that we're learning Shadow Kirby's true name when it's rather just reaffirming his intentions (akin to King Dedede in the epilogue of Kirby's Adventure). A closer translation would be something along the lines of, "From now on, the Kirby of the mirror world will be there to protect the peace." Given that and the sticker recently using the name Shadow Kirby, my suggestion is to rename this article to Shadow Kirby, with the existing article as "Shadow Kirby (Kirby Fighters)" for now. AdieuLain (talk) 00:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
As I said in an earlier talk, if the localization team made a mistake, we have to live with it until such a time that it can be overcome with further entries, since we are an English localization wiki first and foremost. If Mirror-world Kirby gets a role in a future game and is definitively called Shadow Kirby, then we can change this article's title. --Fubaka (talk) 01:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm aware that the wiki is English, but ultimately speaking, Kirby is a Japanese series, so it wouldn't be entirely prudent to dismiss this observation, especially since we do have a very recent appearance (albeit a cameo) that does definitively label him as such. Besides, it is apparently not called the "mirror world" anymore, so even if the stilted line is still interpreted as Shadow Kirby's name, it is no longer current. AdieuLain (talk) 01:34, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Don't take my comments to mean that I am dismissing the information. Everything you've written would be perfectly good information to have on the page itself. The only argument I bring to bear is that because he was called Mirror-world Kirby here in the west, that is the correct name to use for the article title until further notice. --Fubaka (talk) 01:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
But how is the sticker cameo not the "further notice" required to move the page? That's what I don't understand. AdieuLain (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
The name Shadow Kirby is used in Kirby & The Amazing Mirror during regular gameplay, before the player knows who Shadow Kirby really is. The argument can be made that the sticker uses that name to avoid spoilers for the game. I also want to add that I think the idea behind the name Shadow Kirby initially was to give the misleading impression to the player that he was an enemy or a servant of Dark Mind. I would have assumed that if his name really was Shadow Kirby, they would use that name in the end cut-scene again instead of calling him the Kirby of the Mirror World. Just my observation.--Fubaka (talk) 02:42, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
What would the spoiler be in the name alone, exactly? It's pretty obvious in his appearance early on that he's the mirror world counterpart of Kirby, way before the ending spells it out; the spoiler is that he's not an antagonist, which the player may have figured out sooner if they don't force him to act out in self-defense. Ignoring that, I sincerely doubt the creators were conscious of old spoilers, considering that the likes of Dark Matter's second form and Dark Nebula are also stickers. I get the second Shadow Kirby complicating that article, but the idea of avoiding spoilers, I don't see. I also want to say that Shadow Kirby is more referring to his color scheme, and a modern appearance would likely assume that to be self-evident rather than cause potential confusion with Mirror Kirby. And to be frank, I'm not aware of any other circle that took the final line of Kirby & The Amazing Mirror literally. AdieuLain (talk) 03:01, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
The main sticking point I think is whether or not Mirror-world Kirby is a creation of Dark Mind, similar to Dark Meta Knight. The end scene appears to dispel that idea from the player's head by not referring to him as Shadow Kirby, instead simply referring to him as the Kirby from this world. This is present even in the Japanese original text which you provided us. Do you get me? --Fubaka (talk) 03:05, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I think the fact that he's not Dark Kirby was already a subtle hint that he's not associated with Dark Meta Knight and Dark Mind. AdieuLain (talk) 03:08, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
What of Shadow Dedede then? --Fubaka (talk) 03:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Different game that came out much later and had a virtually separate developer team; I mean in the context of the original game, though technically we never find out Dark Meta Knight's name or Dark Mind's existence until late in the game when they're the final bosses, so the idea of Shadow Kirby possibly being a creation of Dark Mind likely wouldn't cross the player's mind. AdieuLain (talk) 03:33, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Not sure what the development teams have to do with this. Both teams were working from the same continuity and trying to weave a coherent narrative that linked the games together. Let's drop the red herring of mine regarding whether Shadow Kirby may have been construed to have been created by Dark Mind or not. The idea I was trying to get at is that in Kirby & The Amazing Mirror, Shadow Kirby is initially presented as an enemy, and that is where the name is used. Later in the credits sequence, we have him appear again, this time referred to as the "Kirby of the Mirror World" instead of Shadow Kirby. Do you not see the argument that there may have been an attempt to mislead the player initially by calling him Shadow Kirby in the first place, and that all subsequent references to the character preserve that name as an homage to that initial attempt to mislead the player? --Fubaka (talk) 03:40, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Development teams can make a difference because later developers might not always fully grasp what earlier developers were trying to convey - the absence of Flapship, Dimps, and importantly Sakurai is no small detail. (As an aside, Shadow Dedede also only received overt connections to Dark Mind via King D-Mind and originally seemed to be written as an unaffiliated mirror denizen, but that's unimportant.) My point is, despite not directly mentioning Shadow Kirby by name, the ending text was simply not intended as a reveal of his true name, and the English version both has somewhat vague wording and is too much of a one-off occurrence. We don't take "the Nightmares" half as seriously. I also think that if the creators deliberately wanted to obfuscate Shadow Kirby's name, they would have used "? ? ?" like they did in the first Dark Meta Knight fight, which would have definitely helped serve to mislead the player if that was what they truly wanted to achieve. Lastly, if we believe the premise that "all subsequent references to the character preserve that name as an homage", then there could never be "further notice" that would finally move the title, no? AdieuLain (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Aye, I get what you are saying. I personally still think they were at least just trying to imply that Mirror-World Kirby's name was just Kirby, but I don't care to continue arguing my case. Go ahead and change the article title if you wish. I don't think it will matter too much either way, and you seem to be well-intentioned in your argumentation. --Fubaka (talk) 04:22, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
All right. I'll wait a bit first in case anyone has anything they want to add. AdieuLain (talk) 04:35, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Actually, it's still called the Mirror World when you pause the game while playing Guest Star ???? as Dark Meta Knight. – Owencrazyboy17 (talk) 01:47, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
Then the mirror world / Mirror-world / Mirror World, on top of having an inconsistent translation, also has inconsistent formatting. That's actually another reason to move it to the common name. AdieuLain (talk) 02:04, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Status update[edit]

Are we still moving this page? I've seen no action on it since that rather long discussion we had. --Fubaka (talk) 06:56, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Well, since nothing has been said regarding this for three months, I am going to decree that we keep the page name as it is for now, so as not to confuse readers between this Kirby and the other Shadow Kirby. The name Mirror-world Kirby is still correct as far as the localization is concerned, so I see no reason to change it until he makes another significant appearance in the series (i.e. not just a cameo as a sticker). --Fubaka (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Mm, I know I'm a bit late to this, but I would personally prefer if this page were moved to "Shadow Kirby", and the existing Shadow Kirby page moved to "Shadow Kirby (Kirby Fighters)". Shadow Kirby is the much more commonly used name both by fans and officially, and I think even as simple cameos, the more recent name should take precedence over the notoriously sloppy Amazing Mirror localization. (Mr. Flosty, for example...) This isn't a mistranslation of a name change, like "Angel" Kirby instead of Cupid Kirby in Triple Deluxe, but rather that Shadow Kirby is the intended name and Mirror-world Kirby is the odd case out, given that the Japanese version says "the Kirby of the Mirror World" instead. StrawberryChan (talk) 20:46, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Well, aside from the sticker in Super Kirby Clash, where else has the name Shadow Kirby been used recently in the English localization? --Fubaka (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Oh... I thought they mentioned him on the Star Allies Nintendo Switch channel, but I guess not, only on the JP Twitter. I was mistaken about there being more than one instance, then. Something worth noting while I was looking for mentions of Shadow Kirby in the localization is that the Kirby Fighters Deluxe Miiverse refers to that instance as a Shadow Kirby, implying it's a species rather than an individual. (See here.) StrawberryChan (talk) 21:16, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Well, maybe not a species so much as a magical incarnation of Kirby that may not be a real entity on its own. At this point, it might be appropriate to have a quick community poll to decide if we rename this article or not. I want to get more peoples' opinion on this. I'll set things up momentarily. --Fubaka (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Rename Poll: Mirror-world Kirby → Shadow Kirby (March 21st, 2020 - March 21st, 2020)[edit]

Due to continued concerns about the name of this article, I am now formally opening up a community poll to decide if we should rename this article to Shadow Kirby or not. If this article is renamed, the existing Shadow Kirby article will be moved to Shadow Kirby (Kirby Fighters).

Quick rules for this vote:

  • Only registered users may vote. Also, make sure to sign your name on your vote or it doesn't count.
  • Winning decision is either whichever receives 5 votes first or whichever has the most after 2 weeks. If a tie occurs, I will step in and decide the vote (since I won't be voting otherwise).
  • Other general community and voting rules apply, as pertains to voting on featured articles or pictures.

Alright, that's all. Feel free to continue discussion below the voting area and change your vote at any time before the vote ends. --Fubaka (talk) 01:54, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Support
  1. As I've stated above, support. StrawberryChan (talk) 01:59, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
  2. "Shadow Kirby" is how this character is known everywhere from what I've seen. He's called that when attacked in Amazing Mirror and in the Super Kirby Clash sticker, while "Mirror-world Kirby" is only used once ever at the ending of Amazing Mirror, and as stated above in this page that was never really meant to be a name in the original version. So, I support this. Gigi (talk) 02:38, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
  3. Pretty much what Strawberry and Gigi said. He was called "Mirror-world Kirby" exactly once, due to the way they translated "Kirby of the mirror world", and it isn't an actual name. He is known as Shadow Kirby for the vast majority of Amazing Mirror, as well as in the Super Kirby Clash sticker. It's also worth mentioning that a spray paint in Squeak Squad called Shadow makes Kirby take his appearance, and Dedede's mirror-world counterpart is called Shadow Dedede. -YFJ (talk · edits) 03:20, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
  4. Per all the supporters. Like what most people have stated, Shadow Kirby is used more often than Mirror-world Kirby, which, again, is only used exactly once throughout the Kirby series. – Owencrazyboy17 (talk) 16:51, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
  5. Per AdieuLain's earlier arguments. Even as an English localization-first wiki, Mirror-world Kirby still sounds like a depiction "of which location" this Kirby is, which Japanese-original clearly confirms was intended (I am unsure of respective lines in other localizations of the game(s), they might be worth checking too, as they likely were guidelined by English). —Viperision (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Opposition
  1. While he is called shadow Kirby most of the game, his real name that's revealed at the end of the game is Mirror-world Kirby. ---PinkYoshiFan 16:40, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
Neutral Comments

Result[edit]

Well that was quick. I suppose I will not go against the community's wishes on this. This article will be moved shortly. Thanks everyone for weighing in. --Fubaka (talk) 18:56, 21 March 2020 (UTC)