Talk:Final Boss (theme from Kirby's Adventure)

Regarding the move

Personally, I think this page name should be left as is. I'm generally against moving a page to a name that has a qualifier unless there's a good reason. We don't necessarily need to have the "newest name" dictate the name of a page. Only if that name becomes increasingly common. Hence, we still haven't moved Galacta Knight to "Aeon Hero" yet. --Samwell (talk) 23:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

While I'm not really in favor of the move for different reasons, I just want to point out that "Final Boss" is a more common name to this theme. It was first used way back in 1994 in the Hoshi no Kirby Yume no Izumi no Monogatari (soundtrack), while "Nightmare's Battle" was only used for the Star Allies remix. It's only two uses vs one, but still. Just really not the same case as Galacta Knight vs Aeon Hero. - Gigi (talk • edits) 23:58, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, in this case "Final Boss" is the original name (as indicated by the 30th Anniversary concert) while "Nightmare's Battle" is the name of the Star Allies remix. Because of that, it's my preference to use the former. StarPunch (talk) 04:18, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems that "Nightmare's Battle" really is just a name for the Star Allies arrangement. And naming policy says that only original incarnation name, and I don't see much of a reason to make an exception. I mean, why don't we use "Dark Matter in the Hyper Zone" for "VS. Dark Matter"? Superbound (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

To clarify, the quote from the naming policy is as follows:

"In the case of music, the latest title should be used only as it applies to its original incarnation, and not any remixes."

So, what qualifies as a "remix" in this case? Looking back at the proposal that put this in, I feel like the spirit of it was to prevent incidental names like "Neon Laboratory" for the KPR version of the Dark Castle theme to supplant the original title and meaning of the song. On the other hand, if we get a new title that seems to be a more formal name for an earlier song (which I believe is the case here), then why not use it? I feel like what we should be aiming for is giving official titles to songs that are "as descriptive as possible", while not being totally obscure. The name "Final Boss" isn't very descriptive, imo. Technically, though, under current policy, you guys are right, but I think this warrants a proposal to change things again. --Samwell (talk) 13:52, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the spirit of the proposal of treating titles of music pages differently was because the song could get remixed and get a completely new name unrelated to the original, and we would need to use the latest name. I guess we never considered what would happen if a situation like this happened, in which a remix gets a more descriptive name than the original title. My reason for preferring "Nightmare's Battle" is exactly for that reason, because "Final Boss" is a very generic name. Moreover, "Nightmare's Battle" isn't a name that changes the identity of the song, if anything it makes it clearer what the song is related to, well, the battle with Nightmare. To go with the "Dark Matter in the Hyper Zone" example, if the original song had a name like "Final Boss" as well, I would also argue to rename the page to "Dark Matter in the Hyper Zone", but as it turns out, the official name of the original, "VS. Dark Matter", is descriptive enough, so there is no need to do that.

At the same time, I could see the argument that HAL sees "Final Boss" as the "true" name of that song, as they had the perfect opportunity to rename the song now in the 30th Anniversary Music Fest, but they didn't, and just used "Final Boss" again. And we've seen that various KA song names were renamed from their original names given in the Hoshi no Kirby Yume no Izumi no Monogatari soundtrack CD, so they could have done it here, but they chose not to. It's a decision that confuses me, but it did happen. Which I guess would mean this ultimately falls into a similar situation to Mountain Stage, which we had a similar discussion a while ago on its talk page, although I should note that the big difference between these two cases is that that page was originally named "Yogurt Yard (theme)", which was a conjuctural title, and here we're dealing with two official titles.

In short, I prefer "Nightmare's Battle" due to it being more descriptive than "Final Boss" and being an official title, but I see the argument in favor of preferring "Final Boss". And I believe what Samwell said is true as well, we should maybe discuss this about song titles and see how we could tweak the current naming policy for music pages, and possibly make a proposal. - Gigi (talk • edits) 03:03, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I see your and Samwell's point, I agree we should get community to discuss the rule. Superbound (talk) 18:39, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Most other music track titles I've seen use the title that best matches the original composition of the music and not any of the re-arrangements. As an example, "A Well-Earned Rest" was re-named to "Ripple Star: Stage Select" due to the former applying specifically to one of the Triple Deluxe arrangements and the latter corresponding to the original composition from Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards. Why would this "Final Boss" track be any different? Especially considering the original title still saw usage at the 30th Anniversary Music Fest just a couple months ago compared to the Star Allies arrangement. – Owencrazyboy17 (talk) 23:03, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Bump. – Owencrazyboy17 (talk) 01:49, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

(reset indent) As mentioned, I'm in strong favor of moving it to "Final Boss", especially because the music fest has canonized that as its latest name. If nothing else, keep it there as part of the current rule and we can change it later if a proposal is made to change the rule. StarPunch (talk) 04:03, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that "Final Boss" do should be the name of this page because it is the only official name for the actual original theme. "Nightmare Battle" refers only to the Star Allies remix because, if it wasn't and it was a name for the original theme, there would be a "/ Star Allies Dream ver." in it like in Marx's. Even if it did refer to the original, "Final Boss" is newer and if HAL changes the name of that theme like that there is a reason for that.
I know that "Final Boss" alone doesn't describe what the theme is about at all and that there would have been a greatly better way of naming it, but that isn't our problem, it is HAL's. They named the theme like that, as "Final Boss" and that is just the name of the theme, that's it. I don't really agree that there should be a proposal to change the theme naming policies for cases like these because WiKirby should compile the official information before any fan one, and here sidestepping out of the completely official and valid way for the sake of using "Nightmare Battle" instead of "Final Boss" simply because for us, the fandom, it feels like a better name, is essentially the same thing as using a conjectural name. Unlike conjectural names "Nightmare Battle" is official, sure, but for a remix, not for the original theme. And if it was for the original theme, it isn't anymore because of the music fest.
I do agree that using names for themes that are "as descriptive as possible" is something good, but that isn't our job, we don't name these things. We don't decide what is the correct name of a theme, we aren't the ones giving official titles to songs. The closest thing that we could do like that would be in cases where the thing is pretty confusing and isn't a clear way forward, like if using "Mallow Castle" or "Marshmallow Castle" as a name for a theme because both are side-to-side and the only thing that could put one over the another is just the region. But this case isn't like that at all, HAL already gave us two things to not be confused about this and to have only clear way forward. One is that as "Nightmare Battle" doesn't have a identifier stating that it is a Star Allies remix, which indicates that it shouldn't be used as a substitute of the original theme at all. And secondly, they just put in a freaking Kirby music celebration, a serious Kirby music thing instead of some random place, that the name of the original one is "Final Boss", even including a screenshot of the original scene where it plays, so at least even with only that they definitively want us to know that that is the actual name and that's it.
And simply ignoring that and going with "Nightmare Battle" instead because one thinks that that works as a better name is not right because it isn't to us at all to decide what is the official title of a song, which would be something that WiKirby isn't about. The policy of WiKirby shouldn't be about the userbase to choose what is official; HAL or Nintendo gives us the official information and we then re-provide them accordingly, without reshaping what is official. -Zolerian (talk | contribs) 07:21, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that this is like using a conjectural title, but I agree with the points about how the original's name being undescriptive isn't our problem. If Final Boss is the official name for the original, then that should be used in accordance with policy since the current name is from a remix. That being said, I would fully support adding a bit to the music naming policy saying "unless the title of a remix is more descriptive than the original song's title" or something similar (although then we would have to decide how to decide between remixes if a song with a nondescriptive name gets multiple remixes with different descriptive names). ---PinkYoshiFan 21:36, 6 January 2023 (UTC)