Talk:Dark Matter

Dark Matter Trio from 64

Would it make sense to give a seperate article to the three Dark Matter beings from Kirby 64 which possess Waddle Dee, Adeleine, and Dedede? They do have official individual names (Dark Rimuru, Dark Rimura, and Dark Rimuro respectively).

I wrote down more details regarding the source of that information here. Kaialone (talk) 09:51, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I'll have to see the material you are referencing. Your Twitter link appears to be broken. --Fubaka (talk) 17:47, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

My bad, I must have had the wrong link on my clipboard. It should be fixed now. Kaialone (talk) 06:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. I suppose it would not hurt to mention those names in the Kirby 64 section of the article, as well as link to your tumblr page as a reference. That said, I don't think it is necessary to make this into its own article. --Fubaka (talk) 08:10, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Dark Nebula and Zero Two

Would it be alright to remove Dark Nebula and Zero two from the "confirmed" section? The alledged confirmation comes from Pupupu Taizen, but the revelant text was mistranslated/misinterpreted by English-speaking fans. Zero 2 and Dark Nebula are not confirmed to be Dark Matter beings, they are merely mentioned as examples of Kirby villains that have similar traits and names to Zero/Dark Matter. They could still be mentioned in the "possible" section, of course. Kaialone (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I feel like the fact that 02 is found in the center of the Dark Star and is the final boss (defeating it causes the Dark Star which is made of Dark Matter to explode) implies that it is associated with Dark Matter. That said, I would like to see these relevant texts regarding Dark Nebula at the very least. --Fubaka (talk) 22:40, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Regarding Zero 2, in the Japanese version of Kiryb 64, the main enemies are actually never called "Dark Matter", not even in the manual or any of the guidebooks. To this day it's ambigious wether they truly were Dark Matter or not. As a result, among Japanese fans it's a lot more common to see fans interpret them as a different species, and in turn Zero is also considered seperate from Zero a lot more. Of course, fanon is just fanon, I just think the example shows how tiny differences can change what the average fan will consider "the most obvious" conclusion.

I do understand that the English version does call them Dark Matter, and I have no problems with considering this as canon to the English version, and listing it in this wiki like that. I just wanted to explain this context, as the relevant text is of course written with the Japanese version in mind.

Now, the supposed source of Dark Nebula (and Zero 2) being confirmed as Dark Matter is page 21 of Pupupu Taizen.

The page had English-speaking fans confused, since Dark Nebula and Zero 2 are pictured on it, together with known Dark Matter characters. But they are actually only pictured here because they are mentioned in the text.

The relevant text is the following:

謎多き

ダークマター族

宇宙の侵略者ダークマターと、その親玉ゼロ。

暗黒の雲で人々を操り、 真の悪役としてたびたび登場する。

カービィの仲間グーイも、実はダークマターと同じ種族。

だが、敵意はなく、ダークマターと似たヒレのようなものがついた姿で空を飛び、ゼロを相手に戦う。

ほかにも、ダークゼロや0²（ゼロツー）といったてきがおり、名前や特性も似ているが、その正体や関連性ははっきりしていない。

The Mysterious

Dark Matter Tribe

The space invaders Dark Matter, and their leader, Zero.

They appeared as the true villains multiple times, controlling people with clouds of darkness.

Kirby's friend Gooey is actually of the same species as Dark Matter, too.

But, he's not hostile, and fought against Zero, taking on a form similar to Dark Matter, where he had something resembling fins, as he was flying through the air.

In addition, there have been enemies such as Dark Zero or 0² (Zero Two), with similar names or characteristics. However, their true indentities or relations are unclear.

For clarification, since Dark Zero (Dark Nebula's Japanese name) and Zero 2 both have "Zero" in their names, one might interpret the last paragraph as comparing them to just Zero, rather than the Dark Matter species as a whole. However, the prior paragraph was about explaining that Gooey is the same species as Dark Matter, so that context makes it clear it's about comparing Dark Nebula and Zero 2 to the Dark Matter species. Not to mention that the section as a whole is about Dark Matter as a whole, not just Zero.

Adding to that, the final paragraph makes use of the connective particle "や" between Dark Nebula and Zero 2, rather than "と", which basically means that they are just non-specific examples being named here, not the only ones.

So rather then being specically about those two characters in particular, the paragraph is basically just noting that there has been enemies that are similar to Dark Matter, but it's unknown if they are related, etc. Kaialone (talk) 12:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Hmm... I wonder if the line 'identities or relations are unclear' is referring to the idea of if these distinct entities named Zero in particular are related or if they are the same being in different incarnations, as opposed to whether or not they are Dark Matter. I would still contend that the fact that they are all pictured together gives a strong impression that they are all supposed to be Dark Matter, because they did not have to show them to mention them in the text.

That said, it seems clear to me through the name change that the English localization was attempting to dissuade us from thinking that Dark Nebula was related to Zero or to Dark Matter in general (for whatever reason) and since this is an English wiki, we should not treat it as a confirmed example of Dark Matter. I think at this time, it would be silly to remove Zero Two from that designation as well, given how closely woven in it is to Dark Matter, and the fact that Zero from Kirby's Dream Land 3 is still an undisputed member. I do appreciate the digging you've done on this matter, and it should be noted as an interesting reference. --Fubaka (talk) 21:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, as I said, Zero 2 and Dark Nebula are just two random examples given here, as indicated by the wording. Otherwise they would have used the particle "と". It's something that's hard to get across in English, but feels a lot clearer in Japanese. So it's definitely not just about the "Zero" identity, it's about any enemy that seemed possibly related (so also guys like Dark Mind, etc.).

Still, I'd understand listing Zero 2 as a "confirmed" member in the English version, so to speak, even though it's technically not. Zerohas always been openly called the leader of Dark Matter, but with Zero 2 I don't think anything has been stated, even in English material.

Also, this is just me clarifying some details, I'm fine with leaving Zero 2 on the list if you feel that would be better. Kaialone (talk) 07:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Split the cloud

As mentioned above, Dark Matter as we know it did not technically appear in Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, having an amorphous mass characteristic that is unlike the boss character and more like the Hyper Zone cloud of influence from Kirby's Dream Land 3. In Japanese material for Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards, the common form of that game's "Dark Matter" is actually 「黒くろい雲くも」 (kuroi kumo, lit. black cloud), as evidenced here. Additionally, the Kirby's Dream Land 3 instruction booklet refers to the cloud with generic phrases like "black, cloud-like object" or "black object" in the English version, showing that "Dark Matter" was a specific localization. Note that this isn't quite the "Dark Matter-zoku" entry listed for 20th Anniversary Hoshi no Kirby Pupupu Taizen, which also mentions their common trait of being able to manipulate the clouds. I propose splitting the article between the character and cloud, and maybe adding a disambiguation page as well. It's simply easier to follow these incongruous appearances separately rather than forcing it into one subject, and to be frank, we seem a bit behind on this one (even other sites like Wikipedia and TVTropes caught on). AdieuLain (talk) 20:33, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Bumping this. With the above sections in mind, and that the page as it stands is kind of clunky in terms of distinguishing "Blade" from the cloud, I'd think it reasonable to have a split between the two. We can change "Dark Matter" to a disambiguation page using the "confirmed/suspected" section. StrawberryChan (talk) 20:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It's true that the Dark Matter page as is is pretty clunky and could use a rework. I am in favor of whatever you guys want to do to clean it up. --Samwell (talk) 20:02, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Let me just see if I'm understanding this right: we'd have two new pages: one about the Dark Matter that appeared in Dream Land 2, Dream Land 3, Mass Attack, and then had a clone in Planet Robobot, then another for the cloud and the eyed clouds that attacked Adeleine and others in 64, while this one would become a more "general" Dark Matter page? Gigi (talk) 20:35, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

That's right. I just created a page for the Dark Matter cloud, splitting the information that was here; if that looks good, we can proceed with splitting the Dream Land 2 Dark Matter and then making this page a more general one. StrawberryChan (talk) 20:57, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Since there hasn't been much talk here, would it be preferable to use "Dark Matter (character)" instead of "Dark Matter Blade"? StrawberryChan (talk) 20:52, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Unless Dark Matter Blade has been used officially somewhere, the parentheses qualifiers are probably better. ---PinkYoshiFan 00:04, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Dark Matter Blade is the official name through a technicality (per the trivia section of Dark Matter Clone, it's called Dark Matter Blade Clone in full). StrawberryChan (talk) 00:56, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok. I'd say use that then unless there's some other official name, but if there was, I imagine it would have been brought up already. ---PinkYoshiFan 16:10, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Splitting the page sounds good. I also agree with "Dark Matter Blade". -- Jellytost♡ (talk) 21:24, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Bump ---PinkYoshiFan 15:53, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I think we're all basically in agreement on this. No need to do any more bumping, just get started splitting. --Samwell (talk) 16:57, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Has this page been fully split yet? -- Jellytost♡ (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Seems like it has been split but there's lingering doubts on if the name of the character should be Dark Matter Blade. For my money, no, that's the implied name of the first swordsman form, which was only attributed to the imperfect clone. Maybe if Nightmare between Nightmare Wizard and Nightmare's Power Orb are also split, but that seems a bit excessive. It looks fine as "Dark Matter" or "Dark Matter (character)". AdieuLain (talk) 19:53, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

I think I'll keep it as just "Dark Matter". Keeps things simple for the entity most people refer to. StrawberryChan (talk) 23:23, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I think it would be very helpful to move this Dark Matter page to something like "Dark Matter (character)" and use this page as a disambiguation instead. I thought about it today and came to the conclusion that this page being the default "Dark Matter" is pretty confusing for people not in on the series. They might be looking for 0² or Miracle Matter, related characters that could be argued to be Dark Matter, because they misremembered one of the two. They may be looking for Dark Matter as a general subject. Heck, they might even be looking for Real Dark Matter (theme) or Dark Matter Blade (theme), if they're really confused, or vice versa.

Point being, I don't think the flimsy section situated next to the anime section is nearly as effective as the people who put it there might have hoped, especially when we give a lone-standing character the prime page name for what also refers to a species, a clan, and a bunch of related or suspected entities that don't have outright boundaries.

My recommended course of action is currently to:

1. move the existing page here to an alternate title, i.e. Dark Matter (character)
   1. Dark Matter Clone is also two steps away from being a stub, so that could even be merged into a section on this page while we're rearranging things.
2. Take the section regarding possible members of the Dark Matter Clan/species/hierarchy from that page, then slightly expand, elaborate, and display images of each member of that list, all to turn it into a proper clarification.

Thoughts? Waddlez3121 (talk) 00:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed before but I guess never really properly resolved. However, I don't feel making the page "Dark Matter" with no qualifier a disambig is a good idea. We can make a "Dark Matter (disambiguation)" page and link it like we do in stuff like Sand, at the beginning of the page. Anyway, I agree with splitting off Dark Matter Blade from this page, and making this page a more general page about the species. However one issue arises about the muddy lines about the general "Dark Matter" and the individual from Dream Land 2, and I think before we do anything, we need to figure out where we will draw the lines regarding that, if possible using official sources.

Regarding Dark Matter Clone, I feel that page is fine enough to stand on its own, in particular when Sectonia Clone is also a separate page. And 9,483 bytes is nowhere close to being a stub. - Gigi (talk • edits) 00:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The Kirby of the Stars Encyclopedia quote on the page right now refers to the KDL2 Dark Matter as singular (same for the clone, a Miiverse post confirms he was cloned from the specific KDL2 one), so he's definitely a character, although I agree that it is a bit vague for some other cases (e.g. the one you fight in KDL3). I think that moving this to Dark Matter (character) and making this page a species page works. That being said, if we're going to make this page title formally about the species, what about Dark Matter (cloud)? I could see it working as being merged into a species page since it just refers to a large group of Dark Matters (and I'm not seeing a source for the name in there, it having cloud be uncapitalized in the intro makes it seem like a conjectural name), but there are members of the species that exist outside the cloud. ---PinkYoshiFan 18:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I feel like the fixation on Dark Matter is something mostly done by the fanbase rather than HAL themselves. As far as they're concerned, it seems like Dark Matter is just another major villain who can get referenced in later works, like with Marx and his Shooter Cutter attack or Drawcia Soul's Deadly Sun move. In that light, I think it's more appropriate to leave things as is, and just have "Dark Matter" with no qualifier refer to the specific boss from Kirby's Dream Land 2 and his subsequent appearances. --Samwell (talk) 18:57, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Per what I said on the Discord, I'd be willing to pore over our sources to get an idea of where to draw lines on character versus species versus cloud, to address Gigi's concerns. As for PYF's comment about the cloud, I've always seen it as a forest or flock of sheep - not its own object, but a composite of individual members. I'm open to any course of action for the cloud page, whether that means turning it into a mention on the species page or leaving it as-is. Also, Samwell, you're completely right. I do hyperfixate on Dark Matter, and that's why I'm here :P

On a more serious note, I think what distinguishes it from those two is that Dark Matter can refer to many different things regarding context, so the "prime" page without the (clarifying parentheses) should be a page that helps people find what they're looking for rather than about one of those in particular. Waddlez3121 (talk) 19:21, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The main thing to consider is that in almost all cases, "Dark Matter" only refers to one character in the Japanese text. At most, there is some slight confusion over whether KDL2 and KDL3 Dark Matter are the same character, but in all other cases it is clearly referring to the one who was fought in KDL2. Everyone else in the Dark Matter "family" — Zero and Gooey being the only confirmed members — is what's called the Dark Matter Clan in Japanese. The confusion stems from the localization using "Dark Matter" to refer to the dark cloud from KDL3 and K64. If it were up to me, I'd just move the dark cloud to "Dark cloud", but we're working with what we're given, so... I guess I wouldn't mind a Dark Matter disambiguation page, and putting the "relatives of Dark Matter" on there, but I agree with Samwell that it's largely for the best to keep things where they currently are. StarPunch (talk) 02:56, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what exactly dictates that the Japanese text is the end-all be-all for an English wiki that doesn't even use the international standard form of said English. We don't have a Dark Matter Clan page (ironically, my proposal here is somewhat asking to change that) and English sources don't refer to anything as the Dark Matter Clan. We have a Dark Matter character, a Dark Matter species, a Dark Matter collective cloud made up of members of the species, and a bunch of scattered relatives. I understand using the East Asian (Japan/China/Korea) version of the series to supplement things and highlight differences between regions, but not to determine what gets a page across said version boundaries, especially when the change in nomenclature make it harder to discern between the three. Waddlez3121 (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Because Kirby is a Japanese video game series, we go off of Japanese canon when there is no equivalent English canon. What you're calling the "Dark Matter species" has never been officially acknowledged in either canon, and the Dark Matter "clan" is the only acknowledgement of any relation in the Japanese text. Keeping in mind that, yes, the Dark Matter cloud having a different name in English means we should consider it related in the English text — that doesn't mean there is a concrete Dark Matter species to document. We only go off of what's officially there in the games and their related text. StarPunch (talk) 00:26, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

So what I am gathering on everything mentioned here is that, actually, the lines between the individual from Dream Land 2 and a general "Dark Matter species" don't even exist because there is not even a Dark Matter species, there is the "Dark Matter clan" (which is basically the "Relatives of Dark Matter" section of this page right now). My only issue with that is that in Zero's fight in Dream Land 3 he summons mini Dark Matters exactly like the individual from Dream Land 2, kinda appearing like there are multiple of those. Still, I don't think that alone is worth trying to figure out if there is a species.

With everything in mind, here is what I would do:

• Split off the "Relatives of Dark Matter" section from this page to a proper "Dark Matter clan" page
• Keep this page more or less the same, but clarify that this page focuses on the Dark Matter individual, and mention the mini Dark Matters in some form
• Do a general clean up in this page and other applicable pages of possible speculation of a "Dark Matter species" or anything related, and remember the conjecture policy, citing official sources for things we claim

How does that sound? - Gigi (talk • edits) 00:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

That seems like the best option. ---PinkYoshiFan 01:21, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Sure, that works. I think what you cite about Zero creating more of those Dark Matter localizations/entities combined with the Dark Rimurs from Kirby 64 explicitly confirms there are multiple nigh identical (barring graphical limitations) beings related to one another... which is a species... but I'm willing to give that up and leave a footnote along the lines of "while there are a number of similar entities in the Dark Matter Clan, there is no confirmation of these entities forming a species" for the sake of getting this done.

To maximize the specifics of what we're doing, lemme ask this: how far are we going in the Dark Matter Clan page? ie. do we only want to include confirmed members, or have a subsection for members implied to be affiliated, such as Miracle Matter and Dark Nebula? Waddlez3121 (talk) 20:14, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't make it much longer than the section currently in this page, and indeed include the suspected members. I see you are working on a draft for it, but I would advise to be cautious once again with the conjecture policy (there is a lot of conjecture in the confirmed members sections of your current draft), and not really spend too much time writing too much in that pages: its focus should be to just really list the members. If you want, maybe even make it a table similar to the Air Ride Machine page (or I guess tables plural, one for the confirmed, one for the suspected). The format you are currently doing in your draft as well to have "arguments for" and "against" being is improper, as once again that falls too much into the conjecture policy; really, just use what is already mentioned in this page, it's easier. - Gigi (talk • edits) 00:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Bump. - Gigi (talk • edits) 22:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the general format that Waddlez's draft has now with the arguments removed is good, although it's still heavily informal and some of the suspected members seem like stretches. (Personally I think only 0², Miracle Matter, N-Z, and Void Termina should be there - the first three for relations in K64 and Void because of the dark/dream/soul/heart matter thing.) ---PinkYoshiFan 02:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree that not all of the listed entities need to be there, and I think that first revision that still had the arguments shows why, for example, Dark Crafter shouldn't have been there. I literally just copied that list from the section in Dark Matter's page and went with it, but I'd be happy to give some the boot. Could even say something like "Dark Nebula is NOT related to Dark Matter at all" since that one is a popular misconception. ~ by Waddlez! 02:52, 27 January 2024 (UTC)