Talk:Butterfly

Regarding the subject of this article

So, in past revisions of this page, there seemed to be a unsettlement about what this article covers, as it treated one of the butterflies in Green Greens' intro as a special one without specifying anything nor with any proof, almost seeing like a joke article a la Green Greens - Pixel 13, at least to me. Since a more recent revision it is more clear that this article seeks to cover "the red-and-orange butterfly that is seen across games since KRtDL and have shown to be capable of transforming into Morpho Knight", but sincerely I have various problems with that.

First, unless some developer said something in some interview which I'm not aware about and that isn't linked in this page, literally nothing says that every single red-and-orange butterfly seen are the same ones. For instance, in the "Restored to Life" cutscene of KPR three red-and-orange butterflies can be seen, instead of just the only one that is currently covered in the page. The one that is on Kirby's head flies off to where the remains of Dedede's Castle are, and then flies from there too. Afterwards two more butterflies get close to where Dedede and a Waddle Dee popped out, remaining there for a while; you can see the whole scene animated here. In this scene, two butterflies colored exactly like the one on Kirby's head appeared on screen at the same time, confirming that this is at least an species, not just one specific character.

The only butterfly that really has a distinction and that can be called a character is Morpho Knight. But that is other thing, this page covers Morpho's butterfly form like if it was another character, while there is evidence of the contrary. Morpho Knight EX's Japanese pause screen description first calls it "A butterfly of paradise [...]" and then says "After absorbing the white knight, it has finally made his power its own". Like, it doesn't say that "this is a butterfly of paradise formed by absorbing the white knight". It instead says that like if Morpho already existed before absorbing Galacta Knight, and in that moment Morpho is in a butterfly form. More explicitly, KatFL's Japanese figure description of it says "The lone butterfly who casts judgment on final battles was lured to the forgotten, extinct land. There, it feasted upon the most powerful soul it could find, and was reborn as a crimson knight.". It directly treats the butterfly that absorbed that boss as Morpho. In short, instead of saying something like "it was a butterfly that then transformed into Morpho Knight" it says "Morpho Knight had the form of a butterfly, which then transformed into a knight". So, that butterfly that absorbs Galacta Knight and that boss isn't a different character from Morpho Knight, but instead it is Morpho Knight, just in another less powerful form, something that I compare to the two forms of Nightmare and Dark Matter, which are covered in the same page instead of being split because those are two forms of the same character, and not two different characters.

So, by all of that: If this page aims to cover the butterfly form of Morpho Knight, it is doing it wrong because of two things: One, said butterfly form should be covered in the Morpho Knight page, as those two are simply the same character, leaving the whole existence of the "Butterfly" page redundant. And two, again, nothing at all says that the butterflies seen in KRtDL, KTD and KPR are the same one as Morpho, because as KPR showed, there are at the very least two identical looking butterflies. It could easily be that the butterfly seen in KRtDL, the one on KTD and the three of KPR are simply five different but lookalike butterflies, with Morpho being a sixth one. Maybe even the one at the intro of KSA and on "A Farewell to Kirby" are other seventh and eighth ones. We just don't know. The only one that is confirmed to appear two times is Morpho Knight, one time in the Extra Modes of KSA and across KatFL.

If you ask me, the best way to treat this whole topic would be to merge all of the Morpho's butterfly form info in the Morpho Knight article for what I said, they are two forms of the same character, and to also keep this page but while shifting its topic to simply butterflies in general, red-and-orange colored or not, including the now-deleted ones that appear in Green Greens' intro, just because they are a kinda consistent regular thing across the Kirby series, and I think that they are the only consistent fauna displayed in the series that aren't a proper enemy, though that could probably clash a bit with Flutter. If not, then covering the red-and-orange colored butterflies as a species seems good to me, nothing Morpho Knight as an individual among them. Do you agree that the topic of this page is a bit inconsistent or you disagree? I just want to see people's opinion on the topic with the things that I brought up here. -Zolerian (talk | contribs) 05:00, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Well, Flutter is a butterfly, so I feel like making this an article on the species as a whole could work (using {{Main}} with Flutter and Morpho Knight) without it clashing, especially since, as mentioned, they are pretty much the only recurring animals that aren't enemies (or protagonists in the case of Kirby's species). ---PinkYoshiFan 18:38, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, if we move this article's content to Morpho's article under a "butterfly" section and then make this a disambig for Morpho and Flutter, I'd be fine with that. I'm not sure if it'd be noteworthy to cover the smaller appearances of butterflies, which is why I overhauled this article to begin with. StarPunch (talk) 20:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Bump ---PinkYoshiFan 19:43, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Bump 2 ---PinkYoshiFan 15:36, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Apparently no one disagrees about moving Morpho Knight's butterfly form info to the Morpho Knight article, so I will just go and do that while also kinda rewriting this article to treat the red and orange butterflies as an species, instead of as one particlar character (because again, at the very least 2 of them were seen at the same time) and so. From there we could see if we leave the article like that or treat it differently, but keeping Morpho Knight out of it at the end. -Zolerian (talk | contribs) 23:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

So, I did the above thing. Kind-off. I leaved the paragraphs and images referring to Morpho Knight in its butterfly form because those are still instances of this butterfly species. I can completely see if those are completely taken out, but I also leaved them so that it could be seen how the article goes while referring to the butterflies in general while also covering butterfly Morpho Knight, and so we can now see if it works better like that, or if it works better without the butterfly Morpho Knight coverage. To go step by step.

So so, now that the butterflies are treated as a general species with Morpho Knight being one of them, I ask you: Do we leave the article as-is with it covering the butterfly Morpho Knight appearances in text and images? Do we leave it as it is but while removing butterfly Morpho Knight, thus, covering only the red and orange butterflies that aren't confirmed to be Morpho Knight? Do we amplify the article to cover every instance of butterfly in the series, thus by dedicating more in-depth text to the ones in the Green Greens intro and to Flutter, etc? Or do we just collapse the article into a disambiguation for Flutter and Morpho Knight and that's it, which would end up erasing coverage of the red and orange butterflies that aren't confirmed to be Morpho Knight? Or or also if you have any other idea :P

To me, I would prefer keeping the page up to give coverage to those red and orange butterflies that aren't confirmed to be Morpho, because they are just some fauna that appear quite constantly in the series, which is notable for me. I don't have much of a preference about if to cover other butterflies or not, so you'll tell me what you think is better here. -Zolerian (talk | contribs) 03:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

If it's going to be an article on the species, then I think covering all butterflies (besides Morpho and Flutter, which can use {{Main}}) would be best. ---PinkYoshiFan 22:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Bump ---PinkYoshiFan 15:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Bump 2 ---PinkYoshiFan 15:28, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose if you guys want to do this move and render the page a redirect, it would make sense to transfer the title of "3000th article" to the Morpho Knight page, since that's where the bulk of the present writing on this page would be going. I'd still personally prefer these pages to be separate, but that's just me, it seems. --Samwell (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think that it neccesarily has to be a redirect or disambiguation. I still think that covering butterflies as a species (including the ones that aren't red/orange) could work. Also, I'm not sure if transferring the 3000th article badge would be good since it's more about when the milestones were hit, not the content of the page. ---PinkYoshiFan 19:45, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I suppose then that the plan is for this article to be a broad overview of butterflies in the series as a whole? In that case, it's gonna need a rewrite and expansion to include games going all the way back to the original Kirby's Dream Land. If that's the plan, I suppose we can slap the rewrite template on it for now, and I might try to get to it another time if nobody else does. --Samwell (talk) 02:18, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, my thing right now in this topic is that there are various ways in which this article could continue, and I was just wondering about which one to go with. Those are:

1. Cover only the red and orange-colored ones (or "scarlet" colored as that is how Morpho Knight is described, though in its knight form) while mentioning every butterfly that is confirmed to be Morpho Knight. This is what the article is doing right now, so this would mean just leaving it as is.
2. The above, but not really mention the ones that are confirmed to be Morpho Knight. This would, for example, shorten the KatFL section and get the screenshot of that game in the gallery out of here, so that the article only covers the butterflies that aren't confirmed to be any character.
3. Cover every butterfly. This would include the Green Greens intro ones, the completely yellow ones in KatFL, and just whatever other one. Though this may leave Flutter in a weird place, because that one has its own separate page. This would also mean that this article would be a more general one just covering some normal fauna, which I think that would be a new and unique type of article here, and the article being this way reminds me about how the Those Things article works, barring the non-serious sentence structure.
4. Outright destroy the article and making it a redirect or disambig, with the only targets being Flutter and Morpho Knight I think. I just mention this option because starpunch kinda mentioned it there above, and well it is something that can be done. Also, doing this wouldn't move anything to the Morpho Knight article, because by stuff that I presented above, a lot of scarlet butterflies may just not be Morpho Knight. If this article is made a redirect or a disambig, the Morpho Knight one would still have 0 info about Planet Robobot, because even though there at least two butterflies appear, they may just not be Morpho Knight, to give an example.

With this I am not proposing the page to go in one specific direction that I want it to go. What I meant with this is that I am asking what you guys would rather do with this article out of those options, because I don't really have a preference. I am not proposing this article to be turn into a disambig, nor proposing this to cover every butterfly. If this article is kept as-is it is perfect for me, and if it covers every butterfly it is also good for me, and so on.

If you wonder then why I didn't just stop this discussion and leave the article as-is, it was/is because this article before was in a weird lingering spot on what it wanted to cover, I saw several ways to handle this article, couldn't decide in a specific one to propose, and so my objective with this discussion was/is to ask other people what way do they prefer out of those. Sorry by not being so clear before. :P

If that rewrite notice was put because it seemed that I was directly proposing to rewrite that article in that specific way, again, that was not my intention. I'd rather have input of other people about that to see if it is generally preferred to go that way or not. If not so much people show interest in rewriting the article like that, if to collapse it into a disambig/redirect, or if to leave it as-is but while removing information about Morpho Knight, we could just leave it as it is right now with no changes and take this discussion as finished. -Zolerian (talk | contribs) 20:38, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Hi, new person here. As Gigi advised in the Discord, here I am to revive this! I think the page should be expanded to encompass all butterflies, not just the ones that we're (insert Among Us joke here). This is, after all, a page titled Butterfly, not Cutscene Butterfly or Scarlet-and-amber-butterflies-in-the-new-games-we-think-might-be-Morpho-Knight-but-aren't-shown-to-be-so-we-can't-be-quite-sure.

Further, I think that as a wiki we should be aiming for comprehensiveness of information, and while it's not like the other butterflies are going to make or break someone's experience with the series, I think that comprehensiveness includes all butterflies, and they are still a part of the series worth noting for the fact that they're there.

Not sure if my words alone are going to change anything, but that's my two cents. Waddlez3121 (talk) 00:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

"[...] not just the ones that we're (insert Among Us joke here)."

What does this mean?

"This is, after all, a page titled Butterfly, not Cutscene Butterfly or Scarlet-and-amber-butterflies-in-the-new-games-we-think-might-be-Morpho-Knight-but-aren't-shown-to-be-so-we-can't-be-quite-sure."

It's titled "Butterfly" because its simple and most commonly used name among the fandom. Would you argue that Boulder should cover every instance of "boulders" appearing in the Kirby series, as a terrain, or in the background, or whatever?

Thus, I believe the page does have (somewhat, at the moment) clear subject: the orange-ish butterflies that appear in Shinya Kumazaki's works. Kumazaki considers them "a symbol of peace in the series" (he often puts them in opening and ending cutscenes, before and after crisis-of-the-week) and specifically made one to be Morpho Knight to surprise the players. For me, that is enough of a strong distinction from other butterflies, which could be here just because, for aesthetic reasons with no symbolism.

That being said, I do have a feeling the first butterfly from Return to Dream Land was here as a callback to Super Star's Spring Breeze, but that's just speculation.

"Further, I think that as a wiki we should be aiming for comprehensiveness of information, and while it's not like the other butterflies are going to make or break someone's experience with the series, I think that comprehensiveness includes all butterflies, and they are still a part of the series worth noting for the fact that they're there."

Eh, I feel like that would not lead to comprehensiveness, but rather nasty bloat. Also, what does unknown somebody's opinions on the series have to do with anything? I'm confused.

Superbound (talk) 09:39, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so if it's about Kumazaki's butterflies, would "Kumazaki's Butterflies" be a better title then? Because in my opinion, "Butterfly" as a title does not remotely imply just those ones. Using butterfly as the name because it's a common fandom term works fine until the name is a single, commonly-used noun. This is different from, say, if Dark Matter was never named and we called them "Black Blobs with the Eyes" because that can't really mean two different things. Unless you want to confuse it with Nidoo or early Gooey, I guess. Meanwhile, the butterflies we are sussing out (laugh) are one of a number of

Further, addressing Boulder, I think this is a little silly but I see the point. I see that as a different case because the only player-relevant type of boulder is the Indiana Jones type. In contrast, there's only one butterfly who ultimately has anything to do with the player, and it already has a page. Having a separate page for butterflies who are purely aesthetic in the first place should, to me, mean covering all of those aesthetic instances.

The fact that you bring up bloat is funny to me because Flutter has a page. Waddlez3121 (talk) 19:07, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay so quick update: I've thrown together a thing on my sandbox with two different ideas. They are:

1. Split the page into two: One covering Kumazaki's butterflies as this page currently does, and one page documenting all butterflies. This would lead to two stub-like articles, probably, but would be a good way to compromise to both sides.
2. Overhaul the page to be about butterflies in general, and include a dedicated section about Kumazaki's butterflies, if that's an acceptable fan name. This produces one longer page instead of two stubs, but does not compromise for those who wish for this page to stay mostly as-is (though it's not like the content couldn't be put in its appropriate sections just the same anyway).

I think I'm good with either, so I guess if either of these seem good, we can leave it to a vote. Waddlez3121 (talk) 19:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I think making the page about butterflies in general with just a trivia point about Kumuzaki's views on the butterflies would work. Calling them Kumuzaki's Butterflies seems like an odd name. ---PinkYoshiFan 21:19, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Bump Waddlez3121 (talk) 23:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

"[...] because that can't really mean two different things."

I think you're wildly misunderstanding how conjectural titles work. While they should be descriptive, yes, they should also be reasonably descriptive. This is why e.g. Crap (before it got its official name) was named "bomb robot", even though there's a lot of robots that utilize bombs or explosions in the franchise. Your example with Dark Matter shows why we don't follow that path: its hilariously clumsy and would make us a laughing stock. As PYF already said, "Kumazaki's butterflies" is an odd title and I'd prefer to stay with it.

Additionally, you say that fan names that are "single, commonly-used nouns" aren't fine, but... why? What's wrong with calling things what they are and being recognizable to the fans i.e. the readers?

And I just remembered, but in the interviews, the butterflies are called just "butterflies". Since we have policy to stick closely to official names or flavor text, I'm still for not moving the article (see Queen how we handle the name being dropped in a description).

"Further, addressing Boulder [...]" (not copy pasting full point for convenience's sake)

See my "symbol of peace" argument on how the page does have (in my opinion) distinct coverage marked, and not just, as you imply, Morpho Knight and some others.

"The fact that you bring up bloat is funny to me because Flutter has a page."

I don't understand what one has to do with the other, especially since its a fairly petite page. Can you elaborate, please? Superbound (talk) 18:07, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

A lot has been said on this subject, and it looks like people got pretty passionate about one view or another. Honestly, though, I feel like the page as it is currently is fine. It distinguishes itself from Flutter at the top with an about template, and aside from that, there really aren't that many other things in the series that resemble butterflies but aren't more distinct, like Morpho Knight or Mosugaba. I don't think any further action really needs to be taken for this page at this time. --Samwell (talk) 18:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

I lean to consider this whole topic to end on keep the page as is due to something Kumazaki says in this interview. I sadly haven't fully finished translating all of it, but I leave here my rough translation of the relevant part of it:

---

Butterflies, the symbol of peace in the Kirby series

The symbol of peace in the Kirby series

— In the opening and ending movies, there is an orange butterfly flying near Kirby and Dedede, is that butterfly the same one that appears in the other titles?

Kumazaki: When it comes to the story, our major priority is the game design. However, if the worldview becomes more deep and the series as a whole becomes more exciting, we are looking for things that will add depth to the series, so we are sowing the seeds for various imaginative ideas.

— So you are looking ahead.

Kumazaki: The premise is that the world of Kirby has many parallel elements that are not connected chronologically due to the diversity of each title in the series, so I will not say whether that butterfly is the same character as others in the other titles in the series. However, for those who want to enjoy not only the action but also the story, we have left some parts of the game open to deeper speculation.

— I see.

Kumazaki: Meta Knight's battleship Halberd was once submerged in Revenge of Meta Knight of "Kirby Super Star". However, later in "Kirby: Squeak Squad", the battleship Halberd is found at the bottom of the sea, taking advantage of the fact that it has been submerged in the past. By utilizing such past settings and facts, new stories can be created, so there are also ways to utilize past settings to the extent that people can enjoy the gameplay without problems, while still feeling the mystery of the story even if they do not know the details. So the orange butterfly, if you don't know it, is a symbol of peace and tranquility before the adventure, or the ending mood, and I think people will naturally see it from a variety of perspectives. Some players may not care about the story, or may not be familiar with the series, so we hope that each player will see the story in a different way, and that each player will feel free to experience it in their own way.

— Various considerations are in progress. (laughs)

Kumazaki: If you play "Kirby’s Return to Dream Land Deluxe" after playing various games of the Kirby series, you may think, "Perhaps?!” Also, the fact that the butterfly didn't touch King Dedede directly at the ending, but instead perched on a flower... that's something to consider.

---

As per usual, Kumazaki keeps things vague, and I think that is what we should do with this page. Leave it as is. Although I will say, it's odd that we mention Dream Land in the page but then don't count it as a proper appearance. - Gigi (talk • edits) 17:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

If I don't hear any objections in one week, I will consider the topic of this talk page resolved. - Gigi (talk • edits) 18:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

With that settled, I am considering this conversation closed for now, and we will keep the page as is. - Gigi (talk • edits) 22:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)