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Talk:Kirby (species)

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This article seems to assume that clones and non-canon appearances suggest the existence of more of Kirby's kind. I'm not outright disputing that they exist, but come on. Minigames? Opening sequences? Kirby's little end-of-level dance? That's kind of ridiculous. Jimbo Jambo 20:00, 15 October 2010 (CDT)

Yeah, you you are right about that. Some minigames do suggest more of Kirby's kind though. Hey, it's better than stating that a Kirby that's brown is a totally new one (KaTAM has spraypaint). That's what happens when you write articles after midnight :( Would you mind to fix the obvious inconsistencies? The minigames can be mentioned in their own small section, and the clones should probably be removed. What non-cannon appearances are you talking about? I took everything from in-game, and each thing was checked, and re-checked a couple of times. I missed a few games that I don't have though. This was just to start up the article pretty much. --Static 22:37, 15 October 2010 (CDT)
Brown Kirby on the Kirby Wikia? That's still there? As usual the admin there is more concerned with keeping his wikis safe from "trolls" than the quality of the articles....
Anyway, yeah, I would consider minigames non-canon. I kind of doubt that Kirby stopped to bat around a bomb with a frying pan on his quest to rescue Dreamland. Kind of ambiguously canon I guess.... But I guess they are worth mentioning in their own section. Also, I suppose we are considering spin-offs to be canon? They do have legitimate storylines (not actually sure about Air Ride, but it seems unfair to count out just one game).
So what we're left with are the yellow, red, and green Kirbys, which are explained in Amazing Mirror to be part of Kirby himself; the mysterious blue Kirby from Air Ride; Keeby, though he may be the same as Yellow Kirby; possibly the Kirby-bombs on Mt. DeDeDe in Kirby's Dreamland; and the "maybes" like Batamon and Metaknight. Anything else? Jimbo Jambo 09:54, 16 October 2010 (CDT)
All official/licensed Kirby games should be considered "canon" imo. I don't see why sub-games should be excluded either, personally; there's no proof that Kirby did not "[stop] to bat around a bomb with a frying pan" (quite the opposite, in fact, as it's seen in the game), so excluding them with a reason like that would be speculation. As for multiple Kirbys, Kirby's Dream Land and Spring Breeze both have what appears to be an entire crowd of Kirbys cheering on the regular one in the ending.--Vellidragon 10:22, 16 October 2010 (CDT)
Dang, I missed that? I had it in earlier versions of the article, but I lost that info 3 times! Quite frustrating. I believe that kirby does stop to gather one-ups to help him on his quest ;D. I consider some spin-offs to not be spinn-offs, really. I don't really see why Tilt 'n' Tumble is a spin-off, and Canvas Curse isn't, though it might have something to do with the copy abilities and other details. Batamon is not a Kirby BTW. I just mentioned it because the enemy is in a game, and might be mistaken for a Kirby, though I probably specified it quite badly. I can't do anything until next week though... --Static 22:48, 16 October 2010 (CDT)
Actually I didn't mean to dispute the fact that the characters mentioned above were members of Kirby's species, I was using those as examples of possible members/things to include.
As for minigames, I have a really hard time taking everything that happens in games 100% literally. Am I really to believe that, as according to KA/NiDL, the world is divided up into distinct levels, accessible via numbered doors in an overworld map, and that each of these levels has a cloud catapult where Kirbys wait to award our hero with "points" for jumping really high? Or that there are multiple DeDeDes and Adelines according to K64? A line has to be drawn somewhere. Jimbo Jambo 02:03, 17 October 2010 (CDT)
As mentioned in the article, multiple Kirbys can actually be seen exploring in NiDL through use of multiple Kirbys. SSB has multiple Kirbys too, but that isn't really canon. There are also multiple Meta Knights in the Meta Knightmare mini-game in NiDL, though the playable one is probably just a Kirby copy version..It's Turtwig A! My talk or wiki edits 08:51, 17 October 2010 (CDT)
It's everyone's own choice how literally they take the games, but it's not for WiKirby to decide where that "line has to be drawn" (if that's what you are trying to say, I hardly know where this is going anymore). As long as there's no official word labelling something as "non-canon", all we can do is assume that everything that can be seen in the games is canon and let the reader decide what to do with that. Forcing a specific perception of Kirby canon on people would hardly be objective anymore, and the only people who should have the right to do that are the series's creators. As an ecyclopaedia, we should treat everything Kirby-related and official with the same weight. It's alright to not consider certain things canon, but that's a personal opinion, of course, so the structure of an article or information contained within shouldn't revolve around that.--Vellidragon 09:43, 17 October 2010 (CDT)
What then, rewrite the DeDeDe article to imply that there are four DeDeDes? Mentioning those things in such a serious tone detracts from the quality of the article and serves to mislead people. Such things should be written to state the facts (four DeDeDes are playable) but not make implications (there are four DeDeDes in Dreamland). Obviously can't do that with this article, where the implications are the article, but I don't think it hurts to tell people to take ambiguously canon information with a grain of salt, so long as we can agree what falls into that category. Jimbo Jambo 18:51, 17 October 2010 (CDT)
The "four Dededes are playable" path is the one I usually take, and which should probably go for the entire wiki to refrain from making assumptions. I disagree with telling people what information to take "with a grain of salt", though. Our purpose is to inform people about Kirby-related media and what can be found in it in an objective, neutral manner, not tell them how they should look at the game universe should they decide to take any of it seriously. As I stated before, what to make of what's stated here should be left to the reader; if they read about four Dededes being playable and want to consider it "canon" that there are four Dededes, nothing's stopping them, although nothing forces them to do so either. Simply pointing out what can be seen is an ambiguous style that lets us avoid telling people what to consider canon, so I don't see why we should forcibly go the other way.--Vellidragon 20:25, 17 October 2010 (CDT)
Like I said, as great as that is, it's not really possible on this article. Telling people that X minigame features multiple Kirbys on that minigame's article is one thing, but stating so on this article immediately tells the reader that the writer believes those to be extra members of Kirby's species. Even though it might be worded the exact same way, the context makes it no longer objective.
By the way, I assume this wiki doesn't recognize the SSB series as Kirby-canon. No, it's not quite the same as Kirby-related minigames, but fact is that some people really believe SSB to officially tie together a number of game universes, and I don't believe Nintendo/HAL has actually stated otherwise. Jimbo Jambo 11:55, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
Well, the article is about Kirbys other than the main one, so if other Kirbys are seen somewhere, they get listed here. I don't quite see how the article makes a statement about "canon" that way. Also, what leads you to the assumption about Super Smash Bros.? As far as I'm aware, we cover that just like we cover everything else.--Vellidragon 12:51, 18 October 2010 (CDT)

OK, things are getting a little out of control here. Let me fix up the article, and then tell me what you think... --Static 13:09, 18 October 2010 (CDT)

The article is about the canonical existence of Kirby's kind, not a list of every single time there is more than one Kirby on the screen. Also SSB is covered because it has Kirby in it, and is essentially a very large cameo, but has no relevance in the actual Kirby universe/timeline/story. It has its own world, just as much as Zelda or Final Fantasy do.
Forgive me for not waiting for your revision, Static, but this argument seems to have gone beyond what goes in the article. Jimbo Jambo 15:18, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
Multiple Kirbys on the screen = multiple members of Kirby's kind. Even if they were clones of the same Kirby, they'd still be members of his kind as he himself is. Also, yes, Super Smash Bros. is covered because Kirby is in it. I don't see what you're trying to show here, though. You assumed earlier that WiKirby would not treat it like canon; I asked for proof of that, but I have yet to see any. If you feel it's not relevant to the Kirby universe, that's okay, but it's treated with the same importance on WiKirby as anything else that has Kirby in it, as far as I know.--Vellidragon 15:28, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
@Jimbo Jambo: I understand your point. This has already been fixed in the new article.
@Vellidragon: Though in some cases true, not all appearances of more than one Kirby on-screen mean that they are unique members of the species. Most of the time when Kirby does his dance, for example, you see the clones vanish after the dance is done.
@generally anyone interested: Super Smash Bros. is a debatable topic as to cannon. It was made by HAL Laboratory, which also made Kirby, but doesn't really have anything to do with the Kirby series. If you look at it from the other series' point of view, it's not really cannon either (eg. Young Link vs. Link or Marth vs. Roy/Ike make timeline holes, and cross-series battles make universal paradoxes). Of course, it's also silly to believe that the characters are just "people in costumes" pretending to be those characters. I personally believe that the Smash series is cannon in terms of characters and the Smash Bros. universe, but not the games' series. For all we know, the "Kirbys" can be any Kirby(s) from the Kirby universe. If you want complete accuracy as to whether something is cannon or not, get an interview.
One more thing about the minigames. This is controversial, but , in my opinion, the minigames in Kirby's Adventure and Nightmare in Dreamland are canonical due to the minigames being in the main game itself, but the minigames in Kirby 64 and KatAM aren't because they are pretty much outside of the main game, accessed via menus. Four King Dededes definitely don't exist.
Hope the new article will satisfy mostly everyone --Static 16:57, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
Had something typed up, but I've been beaten to to the punch.
I would be interested in arguing about SSB's canonicity, but not here. No other organized fansite I've been to accepts SSB as part of its canon, and there's little more reason for the Kirby fandom to.
If the Quick Draw minigame didn't feature multiple duels against King DeDeDe and Metaknight, bosses in the game, I might be a little more accepting of it, but I still find it hard to swallow.
Also, what new article? Jimbo Jambo 18:44, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
1. I guess SSB is it's own cannon. Where would you like to argue? IRC? Smashboards? Email? Some other forum? I really like Melee.
2. You're not supposed to get up to Metaknight and Dedede as a kid ;) Maybe it's Kirby playing some sort of arcade game 0_o?
3. The one I'm writing. --Static 19:45, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
1. I meant not on this talk page.
2. ...See, this is why I liked your idea of throwing all the minigames into one section.
3. Hurry uuuup then. Jimbo Jambo 21:44, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
1. Try my talk page.
2. Pretty much done.
3. Don't expect anything till tomorrow. If there's anything else regarding the article, I'd like to hear it. --Static 21:50, 18 October 2010 (CDT)
1. Didn't you say you didn't think SSB was relevant to games' respective universes either?
3. Well of course I have my own idea of how the whole thing should look, but I can't compare that to yours until it's finished. Jimbo Jambo 08:51, 19 October 2010 (CDT)
My turn to talk now. Why should Keeby be considered non-canon just becuse he's only made on game appearance? It's not uncommon for Nintendo games to include characters in their games that never appear again in subsequent titles. Plus, Keeby was acknowledged twice in official media; once in the Super Smash Bros. series and a second time in Kirby's Dream Buffet. Don't you think it's odd to think of Keeby as being non-canonical to the Kirby timeline under these circumstances? Plus, why do y'all consider Red, Blue, Yellow, and Green Kirby to be non-canon? It's reasonable to think that Kirby would not stop to play minigames with clones of himself while he's on a quest to save the world, but that doesn't prove that they aren't canon. They canonically exist within the Kirby universe, and the minigames are simply side stories to the games and the Kirby clones exist outside of the main story of the games. We can't simply assume that they aren't canon unless Nintendo explicitly states that to be the case (which would be kind of disappointing in my opinion, but hey, I'm not Nintendo, so I don't make the rules here).The All Color Multicolor Kirby Fanboy (talk) 10:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
You accidentally replied to a 13 year old topic. Please refer to the very end of this talk page to see the present topic and my argument, and continue it there please. - Gigi (talkedits) 14:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Kirby Mass Attack[edit]

I know little to nothing about Kirby Mass Attack, but I'm assuming the multiple Kirbys in there would qualify as members of the species rather than the character Kirby? We need some standardising done to the Mass Attack-related articles, as some of them refer to "Kirby" currently (linking to the character) and others to "a Kirby". If these are members of the species, these mentions should probably be consistently changed to "a Kirby", linking to this article. I'm awaiting word from someone who has actually played this game, though.--Vellidragon 10:04, 10 December 2011 (CST)

Anti-Kirby[edit]

I don't think Anti-Kirby should be on this page, or at least not have separate section dedicated to it. First of all, they are from different franchise, and think it's meant to be a reference rather than a potential member of the species. Second, since they dreamed by Wind Fish, it is hard to assume they were some kind of species in the first place. Superbound (talk) 13:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

I've had a look at this back and forth, and I can see where both you and Gigi are coming from, here. The main things to consider are the following:
  • This page is meant to document entities in the Kirby series that are similar to Kirby (the word "species" in this case is being used for lack of a better term, since we are obviously not going by the biological definition).
  • Anti-Kirby is definitely inspired by Kirby, despite not being in the same series, so I think it at least deserves a mention.
  • If Anti-Kirby was in the Kirby series proper, I don't think it would matter if it was a dream conjured by another character (that would be kind of like arguing that nothing in Super Mario Bros. 2 should be up for consideration because it was a dream that Mario had).
If it were me, I would compromise by moving Anti-Kirby to a different section labeled "Outside the Kirby series", but I will leave that up to you and Gigi to work out. --Samwell (talk) 14:14, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
Well, I guess I'm fine with having them somewhere else, perhaps Trivia as it's just one appearance, I'll wait for Gigi's response. Superbound (talk) 11:06, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I'm late to this reply and I apologize for that. After thinking about it, however, I don't mind moving this to trivia since this isn't from a Kirby game, but I firmly believe it should be mentioned here since this instance is very unique and very clearly supposed to be Kirby in some alternate dimension or dream world or something. Other Kirby cameos generally are visual and not a whole character in a videogame that acts basically the same as Kirby, which is why I think it fits this page. - Gigi (talkedits) 13:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Alright then, with new official material that calls them "Kirby's evil twins", I'll be now moving it. Superbound (talk) 14:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Canonicity of Keeby and not plot relevant Kirby recolors[edit]

So there has been a dispute regarding the above topic. I will admit that Kirby canon is a muddy topic and not much is set, but what I think the article should say, and in my eyes is correct, is that Keeby and those other Kirbys are not canon to the storylines of the games they appear, and that much appears to be true. The point I see in pointing this out as well is to not confuse readers with the colored Kirbys of games where they are canon in the story and have an explanation for existing, namely Amazing Mirror and Battle Royale. The yellow Kirby in 64's sub-games never appears in the game's story, much like all other colored characters in said sub-games. This happens again in all other game listed in the "Other" section; I suppose you can argue about the yellow Kirby in Kirby Master, but it makes you wonder why they are never in any cutscene of Return to Dream Land. This argument also applies to Keeby, as he's not part of the story either.

In short, what I am trying to say is "these Kirbys are not canon to the game's storylines", which again is true. For example, just because Galacta Knight shows up in The True Arena of Planet Robobot doesn't mean he's canon to the game's story. Similarly, just because recolored Kirbys appear in Kirby Fighters in Triple Deluxe doesn't mean they are canon to the game's story. Finally, in terms of games like Fighters 2, I guess there is an argument to be made, but I also personally consider Gooey and Magolor not canon to the game's story mode because they are never acknowledged there. We can rewrite to make it clearer, but that is what I am arguing. I am open to discussing this in more detail. - Gigi (talkedits) 12:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, although I think that KDB should count if the Fighters games do (which I feel like they do since there wouldn't be a story mode without their existence) since the colored Kirbys appear in the intro cutscene. ---PinkYoshiFan 15:18, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Then what do you think of Air Ride? Colored Kirbys also appear in the intro, but there isn't really a story in that game, much like Dream Buffet. - Gigi (talkedits) 15:21, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
I've been thinking that a compromise could be "it's unclear if these Kirbys are canon, as their appearances are never directly acknowledged in the story of said games, when said games have a story to begin with". - Gigi (talkedits) 15:23, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
That seems like it could work. ---PinkYoshiFan 03:23, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

It's has been almost 6 months since this topic was first brought up, and the other party of the dispute hasn't joined the discussion. I will call this resolved in a few days unless they show up last minute. - Gigi (talkedits) 00:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolved. Changed wording to explain that it's unclear if these Kirbys are canon or not, rather than claiming for certain that they are canon or not. - Gigi (talkedits) 15:08, 27 December 2023 (UTC)